From root@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU Fri Jul 26 13:59:19 1991 Received: by penzance.cs.ucla.edu (Sendmail 5.61a+YP/3.07pram3) id AA03508; Fri, 26 Jul 91 13:59:19 -0700 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 91 13:59:19 -0700 Message-Id: <9107262059.AA03508@penzance.cs.ucla.edu> From: cz@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU To: cz-dist@penzance.CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: CZ v7 #1 (msgs 1-11) Errors-To: cz-request@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU Status: RO The Convergence Zone Date: 26 July 1991 Volume: 7 Issue: 1 First Message: 1 Messages: 11 Topics: (1) Editorial cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (2) Amiga Problems charbonneau@crd.ge.com (3) JSTARS guidry@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (4) PC version 1.2 zen@utcs.utoronto.ca (5) Amiga version 1.1 caw@miroc.chi.il.us (6) 360 Pacific Response hand@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (7) Sea Cobra, etc. lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (8) Naval Tactics lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (9) Beginner's Questions rogers@npdiss1.stpaul.ncr.com (10) British Warships lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (11) Harpoon Users' Group frank0@ibmpcug.co.uk "The Convergence Zone" (or just "CZ" for short) is an electronic mailing list for the discussion of the Harpoon naval wargame series and related topics. Submissions: cz@pram.cs.ucla.edu Administration: cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu Archives: sunbane.engrg.uwo.ca (129.100.100.12): pub/cz via anonymous FTP ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 26 Jul 1991 13:24:42 PDT From: cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (CZ Administrator) Subject: (1) Editorial New subscribers since last issue: mb@mcshh.hanse.de (Michael Beer) cellar!sailor@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Rick) I have finally uploaded Volume 6 to the archive site. Sorry for the delay. Now to answer a few questions. So far CZ has kept up with (and in some cases is a little ahead of) the "official" errata. Unortunately, it is scattered about over many issues. (Hopefully, people are faithfully keeping up.) One of these days, I intend to do a consolidated errata for FTP. But please do not expect it soon. The Air Superiority game system has clearly been an influence on Harpoon's evolving air rules. This has been reflected to some extent by the "official" rules changes that have appeared in CZ, but that is about it so far. -ted (disguised as CZ Administrator) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Jul 91 14:22:54 EDT From: charbonn@sol.crd.ge.com (Michael R. Charbonneau) Subject: problems with 360's computer game Summary: (2) Amiga Problems hi everyone, I am using the Amiga version of harpoon, on a Amiga 2000 with 3 megabytes of memory. The game is great (while it's working) however I am getting frustrated with the game continually crashing. It seems to happen frequently when there are many pieces moving around, in fact it has crashed 5 out of 5 times in the 6th scenerio in the GIUK battleset (defense of keflavik I think). Sometimes the game locks up, once the screen went dark and I had to reboot - I already talked to the tech people, they suggested raising the stack to 12000 (I raised it to 25000) and the game still went under. I think the people at 360 have a great potential product, but I think they need to work on the amiga version and release a debugged update. michael email to charbonneau@crd.ge.com PS. send suggestions or fixes if you know of them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Jul 91 12:16:49 CDT From: guidry@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (David A. Guidry) Subject: (3) JSTARS In CZ v6 msg 43, lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Mark Lam) writes: >I was told that, minus the Apache, JSTARS, and MiG-31, they would be >in there. In CZ v6 msg 56, gsnow@pro-freedom.cts.com (Gary Snow) writes: > I'm not surprised on most of those (though I'm not sure what the > JSTARS is,a new EWACS?), but as far as I know the MiG-31 hasn't been > exported to any foreign country, except Soviet Bloc countries, and is > not (again as far as I know) present in the Mid-East. JSTARS is a ground detection variant of the AWACS platform. Instead of employing searches at all altitudes, it searches only at ground level (or mostly at ground level). Instead of trying to detect air threats, it's purpose is to track the movements of ground forces. It does an admirable job of seeing armored vehicles upwards of 100 miles away. Dave -- David A. Guidry | On a clear disk, you | empire Student Consultant | can seek forever | Not just a game Academic Computing and Network Services | but a way of life | -- Gott im Himmel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1991 15:38:07 -0400 From: zen@utcs.utoronto.ca (N. Zentena) Subject: harpoon 1.2 Summary: (4) PC version 1.2 Hi, When I upgraded to 1.2 I noticed that it fixed a large number of the random lockups[so far so good]. But the game would refuse to fire against incoming missiles![NOT GOOD!]. So I called 360 about it and they said that yes on some machines the computer would not fire at missiles fired on bearing only. Asking for a work around I was told that I should fire my missiles without a firm location fix. So if it seems the computer has no interest in protecting your units then this maybe the case for you too. Now does anybody know if 360 has a newer version then 1.2 for the PC? Also why does the computer HATE Burke class ships?[send in 20 backfires against a group of 2 carriers various other ships and one burke and the computer will allocate most of it missiles against the burke! Forget the carriers or the Ticos in the group.] Nick P.S. Since the soviets tend to have less info the above problem with sam refusing to fire is in fact an advantage to them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Jul 91 03:03:18 CDT From: caw@miroc.chi.il.us (Christopher A. Wichura) Subject: Amiga Harpoon v1.1 Summary: (5) Amiga version 1.1 Comment: article is copy of message sent to 360 on CompuServe On 7/17/91, I called your customer support number to request the update for the Amiga version of Harpoon. The gentleman I talked to was very polite and in short order I had the update installed on my system. Running Commodore's Config program on my system (an A3000/25) reports: CHIPS: CPU 68030/68882fpu/68030mmu, ECS NTSC Agnus, ECS Denise VERS: Kickstart version 37.175, Exec version 37.132, Disk version 37.52 RAM: Node type $a, attribute $105 (FAST), from $7800000 to $7f7ffff Node type $a, attribute $303 (CHIP), from $400 to $1fffff BOARDS: CBM A2232 serial production: Prod=514/70($202/$46) (@$e90000 64K) In playing with the new update, I have to wonder about your quality control, as I have found a number of repeatable problems: 1) If any font other than topaz/8 is used as the system default then all textual items are damaged. To fix this is trivial, as all you need to do is change the NULL to a pointer to a TextAttr that asks for topaz/8 in the various IntuiText structs. Under KS 2.0, changing the default system font is trivial, and should be supported by the game. 2) If one runs AutoPoint, a SUN mouse type commodity supplied BY COMMODORE with KS 2.0, Harpoon will lock Intuition up tigher than a drum almost instantly. I can still log in with my terminal and execute CLI commands, but anything that relies on windows/mouse/menus/etc is hosed. I know that the documentation says that some SUN mouse programs can cause problems. However, a utility supplied by Commodore should not crash the game, especially since it doesn't crash anything else I've ever used under 2.0. 3) Do you guys have Enforcer? This is a tool that Commodore provides to anyone who asks for it that catches illegal memory reads and writes to critical areas of memory. It requires a machine with an MMU in it to use. Running Enforcer, I get a read hit in the title screens. Once the game comes up, I get nearly constant read and write hits from Enforcer. A mouse movement is guarenteed to produce a hit. Hits will also be generated fairly reqularily with no input occuring, too. 4) I have managed to crash the game a couple times by doing the following: Select NACV scenario #2. Select the airbase with two Orion Anti-Sub loadouts (upper right, forget the base's name). Select launch aircraft, Patrol mission. Now hit one of the arrows to scroll the top view. Game locks up. This was at 4x magnification. 5) The game crashes randomly in no particular place, after no particular amount of time. Probably do to illegal reads or writes off an errant pointer (read: use Enforcer). 6) While not a bug, it looks really unprofessional to print Amiga Version 1.0 and then reprint Version 1.1 on top of it when the user selects the About menu item. All in all, I have given up on Amiga Harpoon v1.1 after a few days of frustration. I waited a long time for the KickStart 2.0 compliant version of Amiga Harpoon to come out, only to be disappointed. Another update, simply to fix the large number of bugs, is sorely needed. I suspect that if you used Enforcer and tracked down all those illegal memory hits that the game would become much more stable. -=> CAW Christopher A. Wichura Multitasking. Just DO it. caw@miroc.chi.il.us (my amiga) ...the Amiga way... u12401@uicvm.uic.edu (school account) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1991 18:27:49 GMT+0000 From: hand@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov Subject: (6) 360 Pacific Response Recently, I received an e-mail response from one of the persons at 360 Pacific answering some questions I had about the game's future. I asked the following questions: Will there ever be any mine fields in the game? Will there ever be any air-to-air refueling implemented? Will logistics ever be added to the game? Will neutrals ever make an appearance? To these questions, I received the general answer that due to memory restrictions (at least on the PC), these things will not be added to the game. No big surprise here. The interesting thing though was the mention of the next project in the works -- "Harpoon Gold." It was mentioned that this project is a 386 Protected Mode version of Harpoon with all of the above facets added along with improved AI that had to be stripped out of earlier versions due to memory constraints. Unfortunately, it probably will not be out for at least two years (Uuuuuugh!). Also mentioned however, was more on IOPG (a.k.a. BattleSet #4: Indian Ocean Persian Gulf). It was said that this battleset will be the best yet in that the scenarios will be tougher to achieve victory (all of the previous scenarios were designed to be easy victories -- almost a direct quote). Weapon loadouts will be more realistic rather than ideal (like maybe only having a max of 4 Phoenix's on an F-14 instead of 6?). Base defenses will be beefed up and submarine warfare will be made more realistic. The quoted delivery time was said to be October (as in end of,). Should be interesting... Kolin E. Hand hand@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 12:04:39 MDT From: lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Mark Lam) Subject: (7) Sea Cobra, etc. Just an update: In CZ volume 6 msg 49, Ted Fidder (fidder@druhi.att.com) asks: >Does anyone know if 360 is going to put out a new releae anytime soon? I asked Three-Sixty, and the man replied that a new (interim) version is being worked on and should be ready in December. He did not tell me what changes were going to be made. In CZ volume 6 msg 54, David Gillett (dgil@ipsaint.ipsa.retuer.com) says: >But I wish he had also asked about the Cobra/Sea Cobra. Good idea, I'm sorry I left if off the list. I asked, and the AH-1W will be in the new BattleSet (He said it will be included in one scenario.) In CZ volume 6 msg 56, Gary Snow (gsnow@pro-freedom.cts.com) asks: >(Though I'm not sure what the JSTARS is, a new AWACS?) That's a good description, except instead of directing air intercepts, it monitors ground unit movement and calls in air strikes against those units. I included it because I thought it would be neat to track surface ships with it. Gary also commented on the MiG-31 not being exported to any other countries. Having looked at my Air Superiority rules booklet, I found the MiG-31 entry under Iraq, and assumed that Iraq had purchased a few. I stand corrected. Actually, I would still like to see the MiG-31 in the GIUK and MEDC BattleSets, which are areas that they might show up. BTW, thanks to everyone for the hints on _The Duel_. I'll try 'em out and let the list know what happens. Mark Lam lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 12:06:40 MDT From: lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Mark Lam) Subject: References Summary: (8) Naval Tactics I'm finishing the book _Fighter Combat, Tactics and Manuevering_ by Robert Shaw. I was wondering if anyone out there knows of a book(s) that examines Naval battles in the same way (i.e.: specific tactics on ship to ship combat). Thanks! Mark Lam lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 13:38:50 PDT From: rogers@npdiss1.stpaul.ncr.com Subject: (9) Beginner's Questions I just bought the PC version of "Harpoon" and have a few questions: 1) Is there anything you can do when a torp. is approaching one of your ships? 2) When a weapon has "HORIZ" as it range, the effective range is the lesser of the radar range and visual range (I think). Am I correct in assuming that the radar range depends on the size/altitude of the firing platform and target, and that the radar range is not necessarily the same as (i.e., it may be less than) the distance to the "best surface radar" range circle? 3) When firing a Harpoon at a bearing contact you get a dialog that asks at what distance the weapon "goes active". What does this mean, and what is the optimal answer? Thanks. ---- Bob Rogers bob.rogers@stpaul.ncr.com NCR Network Products Div. GEnie: R.C.ROGERS St. Paul, MN ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Jul 91 16:12:19 MDT From: lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Mark Lam) Subject: (10) British Warships Okay, I'm having the hardest time figuring this out. In the American Navy, ship roles are pretty easy to figure out (i.e. Ticonderoga = Anti-Air, Spruance = Anti-sub, Iowa = Anti-surface). The British Navy, on the other hand, seemingly only buys FFs (other than their carriers and subs). Can somebody please tell me what the roles of these different frigates are? For example, in a carrier group, what kind of ships would be used for anti-air defense? What kind for ASW? While I'm at it, I have another question to throw out there. How many planes are in a typical British attack (i.e. Tornado or Jaguar) squadron? How many in a fighter squadron? I'm trying to incorporate more British units in computer scenarios I am putting together, and I need this information to make them realistic. Thanks! Mark Lam lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Jul 91 12:22:32 GMT From: frank0@ibmpcug.co.uk (Frank Dunn) Subject: (11) Harpoon Users' Group [Mod Note: This message appeared recently in newsgroup rec.games.board. I took the liberty of including it here because it may interest list subscribers.] *******************HARPOON USERS' GROUP INFORMATION********************* The Harpoon Users' Group (HUG) is an organization whose membership consists of individuals interested in the computerized naval warfare simulation HARPOON. The Group's primary purpose is to bring together Harpoon users throughout the world. The HUG publishes the newletter C3I (C cubed I, which stands for Command, Control, Communications and Intelligence) no less than four times per year. C3I will feature information relating to Harpoon in the form of new product releases, upgrade information, naval warfare strategy & tactics, play tips, and other information related to the naval wargaming genre. The first issue of C3I has articles on: Harpoon for beginners, scenario design, tactical principles, Harpoon on a 386 with DOS 5, Harpoon on the Macintosh, Patriot- land based Harpoon, Harpoon BBS... The HUG is an organization that has been founded by and for Harpoon Users. All members will have the opportunity to participate in the HUG activities ranging from the publication of C3I to the organization of local-level player groups. Other activities being planned include the establishment of a Harpoon BBS network, design and play contests, and member polls to indicate what upgraded features are desired of Harpoon. The Harpoon Users' Group has the approval of Larry Bond, the designer of Harpoon, and Three-Sixty Pacific, Incorporated, publishers of Harpoon. The groups' activities will be not-for-profit. All dues will be applied to publication and operating expenses. Dues of $10.00 per year will provide members a one year subscription to C3I or 8.00 pounds UK for Europe. Dues paying members will also be eligible to participate in other HUG activities throughout the year as they happen. The Harpoon Users' Group was initially founded by members of the War & Strategy Section of The Gamers' Forum [GO GAMERS] on the CompuServe Information Service. While group activities and discussion take place regularly on CompuServe, the HUG is in no way affliated with the CompuServe Infomation Service. Membership to CompuServe, while encouraged, is not required to be a member of the HUG. To become a member of CompuServe, call 1-800-848-8990 (outside the U.S., call 614-457-8650). In the UK call: FREEPHONE 0800 289 378. To become a member of the Harpoon Users' Group please mail a check payable to THE HARPOON USERS' GROUP to the following addresses: Harpoon Users' Group Harpoon Users' Group P.O. Box 927371 94 Warner Road, San Diego, LONDON, CA 92192-7371. UK, E17 7DZ. Since all activities are the result of user efforts, it is encouraged that members participate in the publication of C3I through the submission of Harpoon-related articles. Please mail articles to the address above. Further information may also be obtained by contacting Carl C. Norman 71360,2141 on the CompuServe Information Service in Section 3 of The Gamers' Forum or by email. On CIX (081-399 5252) contact Frank Dunn (fdunn) by email or in the HUG conference. Harpoon is a registered trademark of GDW Incorporated and is published by Three-Sixty Pacific, Incorporated. All rights reserved. -- Automatic Disclaimer: The views expressed above are those of the author alone and may not represent the views of the IBM PC User Group. -- fdunn@cix fdunn@bix 100012,23 CIS Frank Dunn@MacTel "It must be jelly 'cos jam don't shake like that" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ********** * CZ End * ********** From root@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU Fri Aug 2 15:13:51 1991 Received: by penzance.cs.ucla.edu (Sendmail 5.61a+YP/3.07pram3) id AA01030; Fri, 2 Aug 91 15:13:51 -0700 Date: Fri, 2 Aug 91 15:13:51 -0700 Message-Id: <9108022213.AA01030@penzance.cs.ucla.edu> From: cz@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU To: cz-dist@penzance.CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: CZ v7 #2 (msgs 12-20) Errors-To: cz-request@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU Status: RO The Convergence Zone Date: 2 August 1991 Volume: 7 Issue: 2 First Message: 12 Messages: 9 Topics: (12) Editorial cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (13) Re: British Warships guidry@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (14) Re: Tactics & UK Warships dgil@ipsaint.ipsa.reuter.com (15) GEnie Harpoon robinro@ism.isc.com (16) Scenario Editor Bugs! lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (17) Tactics Texts cellar!sailor@uunet.uu.net (18) Fleet Tactics tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (19) Search Factors lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (20) Re: Beginner Questions tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu "The Convergence Zone" (or just "CZ" for short) is an electronic mailing list for the discussion of the Harpoon naval wargame series and related topics. Submissions: cz@pram.cs.ucla.edu Administration: cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu Archives: sunbane.engrg.uwo.ca (129.100.100.12): pub/cz via anonymous FTP ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 2 Aug 1991 15:02:03 PDT From: cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (CZ Administrator) Subject: (12) Editorial New members added since last issue: givler@cbmvax.commodore.com (Greg Givler) mirrosen@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Michael Rosen) ckumai@plague.berkeley.edu (Unknown) yee@ee.ucla.edu (John Yee) I just got the first issue of C3I in the mail. The graphics look pretty nice, though I haven't gotten a chance to read the articles yet. It looks like this could become the equivalent of the SITREP for the computer game crowd. I will give a full review next week. I have stopped putting in notes about minor reformatting of articles. However, I will always make an annotation if the content is condensed or altered in any way. -ted (disguised as CZ Administrator) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 28 Jul 91 16:44:23 CDT From: guidry@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (David A. Guidry) Subject: Re: British Navy Summary: (13) Re: British Warships In CZ v6 msg 10, lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Mark Lam) writes: > Okay, I'm having the hardest time figuring this out. In the American Navy, > ship roles are pretty easy to figure out (i.e. Ticonderoga = Anti-Air, > Spruance = Anti-sub, Iowa = Anti-surface). The British Navy, on the other > hand, seemingly only buys FFs (other than their carriers and subs). Can > somebody please tell me what the roles of these different frigates are? > For example, in a carrier group, what kind of ships would be used for > anti-air defense? What kind for ASW? The British role in NATO is mainly ASW. Their destroyers are their best AAW assets, everything else is ASW. All of their surface vessels are inferior to their US counterparts when it comes to surface attacks, but their ASW capability is incredible. > While I'm at it, I have another question to throw out there. How many planes > are in a typical British attack (i.e. Tornado or Jaguar) squadron? How many > in a fighter squadron? I'm not sure what the numbers are in real life, but I never send them out in groups smaller than four or larger than 6. I've found that fights are heavily weighed against the extremes in size of air groups. A lone aircraft is guaranteed to go down with minimal effort. A group of 8 or more contains many targets of opportunity... Like shooting at the broad side of a barn. > I'm trying to incorporate more British units in computer scenarios I > am putting together, and I need this information to make them realistic. Unless they have a lot of US ships backing them up, you won't be able to do much with them. About the most interesting thing you can do is send a Kiev group against an Invincible group... then it's a matter of who finds who first. Sea Harriers are short-range, but a large number of sea eagles can hurt a soviet surface group. Yak-38s have no chance of hitting you, but the Kiev has quite a few long-range SSMs. There is already a scenario using the Brits to their full potential... Gatekeeper. Dave -- David A. Guidry | On a clear disk, you | empire Student Consultant | can seek forever | Not just a game Academic Computing and Network Services | but a way of life | -- Gott im Himmel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Jul 91 17:47:26 UT From: dgil@ipsaint.ipsa.reuter.com (David Gillett) Subject: (14) Re: Tactics & UK Warships Mark Lam asks about books that examine Naval battles. I can't think of a whole lot of significant naval engagements since WWII, and so it's not too surprising that books about them are in short supply. The vast majority of contemporary naval books are about the hardware, and many of those include a few remarks about strategic and tactical issues, perhaps in an introduction to each country. You may find a certain amount of useful information in some books about the Falklands, and WWII naval tactics can sometimes still be useful. There's somewhat more available on contemporary submarine tactics. A particularly good source is "Sub vs. Sub". I can't remember the subtitle, or the author's name. (He was the captain who took HMS Grampus under the edge of the Arctic icepack.) He makes a few controversial assertions about Russian strategy and intentions (not supported by any of the unclassified material I've seen), but generally his tactical comments could apply to anybody's subs. Mark also asks about roles of British warships. I think part of his confusion is that their entire fleet is oriented towards anti-submarine operations, with all other roles secondary. The Type 42 destroyers (and the sole Type 82, HMS Bristol) are intended as area AAW escorts with their Sea Dart missiles. You might think of them as equivalent to American single-ended cruisers. Deployment is probably a bit different, since the British carriers also carry Sea Dart. The Type 22 frigates (22/1, especially) were designed for SSM combat: they carry Exocets and Sea Wolf point defenses. 22/2 are similar with improved antisub equipment. 22/3 replace the 4 Exocets with 8 Harpoons and a 4.5" gun, and Type 23 puts that armament on a redesigned hull for lower signatures and even better ASW. Most of the remaining Type 14 (Leander) types have had sonar and other ASW updates. NOTE: (a) UK tends to put DSP facilities for tracking and prosecuting contacts right in the helicopter, versus US approach of relaying sensor data back to ship for processing. UK developed Ikara (with Australia) as an alternative to ASROC, but seems to be phasing it out; I believe they expect to use helos to kill subs at (long) sonar range. And now I have a question that's been bugging me: Did the cruisers of the California class (California and South Carolina) ever mount Mk 42 5"/54 guns? I've seen drawings of the class that way, and the text of some reference books lists them that way too, but all of the pictures I can find now (and the remaining references) clearly show them with Mk 45 mounts. Was this a last- minute design revision, or an early refit, or what? I know it's not really important, but it's been bugging me.... Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 09:16:58 -0700 From: robinro@ism.isc.com (Robin D. Roberts) Subject: (15) GEnie Harpoon Don Gilman posted on GEnie last week that he had seen the early Beta of a multi-player Harpoon for GEnie. Robin D. Roberts [Do I speak for this co.? If I told you, I'd have to kill you.] Internet: robinro@ism.isc.com CompuServe: 72330,1244 GEnie: R.ROBERTS10 "Just how far apart, geographically speaking, are Bell Labs' Holmdel New Jersey and Grover's Mill New Jersey? " - Me ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 31 Jul 91 14:57:33 MDT From: lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Mark Lam) Subject: (16) Scenario Editor Bugs! Okay, here's one to throw out to all you people out there: Last night, I was editing a scenario, and in this scenario I had a group of Soviet subs, one of which was a Delta IV SSBN. I went to add a victory condtion that was going to say that this sub had to be on station for twelve or so hours. I enter Total Victory, Red Side, Anded, Class, Subs,then selected class I.D. I choose SSBN, and I get an error box saying that there are no SSBNs activated for this scenario. I click okay, and when the box dissappears, it leaves half of itself behind on the screen. On top of that, when I selected Victory Conditions again, all of them were gone and replaced by a bogus condtion. Has anyone out there had this happen to them? Anybody find a way to get around it? Thanks! Mark Lam lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ramius: "Carefull what you shot at in here, Ryan. Most things in this room don't react well to bullets!" Ryan: "I don't react well to bullets!" -The Hunt for Red October ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 01 Aug 91 19:02:48 EDT From: cellar!sailor@uunet.uu.net Subject: (17) Tactics Texts In CZ v7 msg 8, lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Mark Lam) writes: > I'm finishing the book _Fighter Combat, Tactics and Manuevering_ by > Robert Shaw. I was wondering if anyone out there knows of a book(s) > that examines Naval battles in the same way (i.e.: specific tactics on > ship to ship combat). Thanks! There are two possibilities: 1) a book about Harpoon is being put together for release RSN, and 2) "Fleet Tactics - Theory and Practice" Capt. Wayne P. Hughes, Jr USN (Ret.), Naval Institute Press. This is the book referred to in the Harpoon documentation. Frankly, I think that Shaw does a better job of describing the "nitty gritty" stuff of aerial combat than Hughes does for naval warfare. Admittedly, Shaw's basic combat unit is a few "ships" while Hughes deals with whole fleets, so that matters of scale apply. (The documentation for 688 Attack Sub, in many regards, may prove more operationally useful than Hughes' book.) There are occasional articles in Computer Gaming World magazine which offer useful ideas. The current issue has a number of good tips on tactics. Harpoon was reviewed by someone who'd attended the Navy's war college (Newport, RI?) and, although I questioned his review of the computer implementation and writing style (verbose and grandiose), his "pro's" views were very useful. "Red Storm Rising," "The Hunt For Red October" (to a lesser degree), and Bond's own books should be used as sources for tactics. ============================================================================= Please send private replies to: cellar!sailor@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 2 Aug 1991 11:02:15 PDT From: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (Ted Kim) Subject: (18) Fleet Tactics The "Fleet Tactics" book by Captain Hughes is an interesting book for those interested in naval warfare in general. However, it isn't a tactics manual for Harpoon type actions, though the principles are applicable. It's more concerned with the big trends in naval warfare historically and in the future. According to a recent USNI Proceedings, the theoretical model described in the book was developed further in: Jefferey R. Cares The Fundamentals of Salvo Warfare 1990 MS Thesis Naval Postgraduate School: Monterey, CA Apparently, Captain Hughes was the author's thesis advisor. I haven't read that work, so I don't know what additions were made. -ted Ted Kim Internet: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu UCLA Computer Science Department UUCP: ...!{uunet|ucbvax}!cs.ucla.edu!tek 3804C Boelter Hall Phone: (213)206-8696 Los Angeles, CA 90024 FAX: (213)825-2273 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 2 Aug 91 12:38:15 MDT From: lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Mark Lam) Subject: (19) Search Factors I was editing a scenario of mine the other day and ran into something I've never seen before, and I don't recall ever reading about it either. I was looking at a Soviet Submarine group, and I switched to the Unit window. Along with telling me the type of sub and its depth, it gave me a Search Factor. One group had an Oscar II in it and had a Search Factor of 117%. Another group had a single Victor III and had a Factor of 0% Another group was a composed of a single Akula and it had a Factor of 56%. Having seen this, I checked another group I made, and it had a Factor of over 200%! What is this? I can't seem to find it in the instructions. Does this mean that a Victor can't find anything without external help? Thanks! Mark Lam lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ramius: "Carefull what you shot at in here, Ryan. Most things in this room don't react well to bullets!" Ryan: "I don't react well to bullets!" -The Hunt for Red October ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon 29 Jul 1991 12:42:06 PDT From: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (Ted Kim) Subject: (20) Re: Beginner Questions In CZ v7 msg 9, rogers@npdiss1.stpaul.ncr.com writes: >1) Is there anything you can do when a torp. is approaching one of your ships? You can try to evade. If you change speed and bearing (and depth for submarines) often enough, sometimes you can escape. Speed is usually increased to gain distance, but it causes more noise. (A few times I have been able to distract torpedoes with noiser targets.) If the torpedo uses wire-guidance, attacking the launching platform should help. (Though, I am not sure if that is reflected in the game.) Sometimes you can just outrun them, especially if you are close to maximum range. >2) When a weapon has "HORIZ" as it range, the effective range is the lesser of >the radar range and visual range (I think). Am I correct in assuming that the >radar range depends on the size/altitude of the firing platform and target, >and that the radar range is not necessarily the same as (i.e., it may be less >than) the distance to the "best surface radar" range circle? I think HORIZ is an indication that the weapon can theoretically go much further than the horizon of the ship-based directors. Generally, this happens with semi-active radar guided SAMs pressed into an anti-surface role. In this case, the range should be the RADAR horizon distance from the ship to a surface target. Usually, surface search radars are limited by horizon rather than power. Similarly, SAM directors pressed into anti-surface roles are generally horizon limited also. I believe the displayed "best surface radar" ring is based on a medium sized ship target. Thus, it is not accurate for ranges to smaller targets. >3) When firing a Harpoon at a bearing contact you get a dialog that >asks at what distance the weapon "goes active". What does this mean, >and what is the optimal answer? Most active radar homing missiles use inertial (ie preprogrammed) guidance for most of the trip. Only when arriving in the "target area", does the radar go on. If the target isn't exactly where it's supposed to be, the missile searches the target area. On a "bearing-only" contact, you don't range data, only direction data. The dialog asks you where to turn on the radar and start searching. If you are too far away from where the target really is, the missile runs out of fuel while searching and never finds its victim. The right answer depends on what else you know about the target and how many missiles you can waste covering your bets. For example, if you detected the target in a convergence zone, you have a rough estimate of position based on the distance and width of the convergence zone rings. If you have enough missiles, you can try a variety of ranges. If I don't know anything else, I stick with the computer's recommendation. -ted Ted Kim Internet: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu UCLA Computer Science Department UUCP: ...!{uunet|ucbvax}!cs.ucla.edu!tek 3804C Boelter Hall Phone: (213)206-8696 Los Angeles, CA 90024 FAX: (213)825-2273 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ********** * CZ End * ********** From root@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU Fri Aug 9 15:07:17 1991 Received: by penzance.cs.ucla.edu (Sendmail 5.61a+YP/3.07pram3) id AA06047; Fri, 9 Aug 91 15:07:17 -0700 Date: Fri, 9 Aug 91 15:07:17 -0700 Message-Id: <9108092207.AA06047@penzance.cs.ucla.edu> From: cz@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU To: cz-dist@penzance.CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: CZ v7 #3 (msgs 21-27) Errors-To: cz-request@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU Status: RO The Convergence Zone Date: 9 August 1991 Volume: 7 Issue: 3 First Message: 21 Messages: 7 Topics: (21) Editorial cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (22) Bomber vs. Bomber lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (23) Soviet Bomber Escorts tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (24) C3I Review tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (25) HUG Scenarios kxb@math.ksu.edu (26) Training Simulator tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (27) Sensor Trivia tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu "The Convergence Zone" (or just "CZ" for short) is an electronic mailing list for the discussion of the Harpoon naval wargame series and related topics. Submissions: cz@pram.cs.ucla.edu Administration: cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu Archives: sunbane.engrg.uwo.ca (129.100.100.12): pub/cz via anonymous FTP ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 9 Aug 1991 14:17:03 PDT From: cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (CZ Administrator) Subject: (21) Editorial New members added since last issue: glenn.frasier@ehbbs.hou.tx.us (Glenn Frasier) I will be out of town the week of the 11th. However, don't let that discourage you from sending in submissions. It does mean, though, that I won't be able to respond to CZ requests until I get back. The next issue will probably come out the following week. -ted (disguised as CZ Administrator) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 9 Aug 91 11:32:51 MDT From: lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Mark Lam) Subject: (22) Bomber vs. Bomber I was playing a scenario I made a while ago, and was treated to a rare event: a bomber versus bomber aerial engagement. The NATO side consisted of 24 F-111F and 3 EF-111A bombers, while the Soviet side had many Badgers and Bears. Everything was fine when the Aardvarks fired off their Sidewinders, but then I get the message that my units are engaging the Soviet bombers with guns. According to my information, the only model of the F-111 that carries a gun is the D. On top of that, how would the 111s carry the gun and the Pave Tack pod at the same time? Anybody have any ideas? Also, does anyone out there use DOS 4.0 or 4.2 with Harpoon? My friend is using it and we're having trouble with Harpoon running out of memory. Has anyone solved this problem? Thanks! Mark Lam lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ramius: "Careful what you shoot at in here, Ryan. Most things in this room don't react well to bullets!" Ryan: "I don't react well to bullets!" -The Hunt for Red October ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 9 Aug 1991 13:17:03 PDT From: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (Ted Kim) Subject: (23) Soviet Bomber Escorts One twist thrown into the Computer game are the modified Soviet bombers with air-to-air missiles (eg the Backfires with AA-9s in the NACV: Ambush scenario). They were put in to give the Soviet player some way to escort his bombers on long range attacks. As far as I know, though, there are no such things. Certainly, the problem of Soviet long range escort is very real. Even with the long range missiles carried by Soviet bombers, going against carriers or bases with long-range fighters can be a sticky proposition. Some articles suggest that the new Soviet carriers might be employed to provide escort. Flankers and Fulcrums from the carriers would meet up with outgoing Backfires and Bears to escort them for the last few hundred miles before the target. -ted Ted Kim Internet: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu UCLA Computer Science Department UUCP: ...!{uunet|ucbvax}!cs.ucla.edu!tek 3804C Boelter Hall Phone: (213)206-8696 Los Angeles, CA 90024 FAX: (213)825-2273 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 6 Aug 1991 15:15:44 PDT From: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (Ted Kim) Subject: (24) C3I Review C3I is the newsletter of the recently founded Harpoon Users' Group (HUG). It is the equivalent of the SITREP for computer game players. The first issue of the quarterly newsletter (vol. 1, no. 1) just came out. The newsletter is divided into sections corresponding to the components of the C3I acronym. The Command section contains news about HUG. Tips on running and playing Harpoon are given in the Control section. Communications deals with information on new Harpoon products and related wargames. Finally, Intelligence provides background information on platforms, systems and military news. Overall, the first 20 page issue is pretty good. The layout and graphics are attractive, though some of the pictures had minor resolution problems. I thought the "Harpoon for Beginners" article was especially good. The tactics article has good information in it, though it needed some help in presentation. The issue had very few typos, and the overall editing seemed to be good. There were some rough edges, but this is the first issue. From the looks of things, C3I should become an excellent source of information for computer game players. People interested in becoming a member of the HUG and receiving C3I, can refer to the HUG announcement in CZ v7 msg 11. Or you can talk directly to Carl Norman, the editor of C3I, by e-mail at 71360.2141@compuserve.com. He is especially interested in talking to people who want to write C3I articles. -ted Ted Kim Internet: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu UCLA Computer Science Department UUCP: ...!{uunet|ucbvax}!cs.ucla.edu!tek 3804C Boelter Hall Phone: (213)206-8696 Los Angeles, CA 90024 FAX: (213)825-2273 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 4 Aug 91 0:16:54 CDT From: kxb@math.ksu.edu (Karl R. Buck) Subject: (25) HUG Scenarios I've just read about HUG a user's group that has a BBS for Harpoon related files. If someone (I think the BBS is in the New York area) is willing to upload any/all files (That are in the public domain) to hilbert I would appreciate the effort. ftp site: hilbert.math.ksu.edu or: 129.130.30.2 Upload dir: pub/harpoon/uploads Just send email if you have any questions about uploading to this site. [Mod Note: I think the BBS is discouraging wholesale downloading of their scenarios, unless you contribute in some way. Maybe the best way to go is to exchange what you have for theirs.] Thanks! -- ET1 Karl Buck (USNR) email: kxb@hilbert.math.ksu.edu Kansas State University Phone: 913.532.6750 Manhattan, KS 66506 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon 5 Aug 1991 12:41:39 PDT From: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (Ted Kim) Subject: (26) Training Simulator Aside from its obvious function of constructing Scenarios, the Scenario Editor is also a very useful tool for for experimenting with platforms and tactics. With the Scenario Editor, you can strip away all distractions down to exactly what you are interested in. For example, the other day I experimented with different types of air attacks on a Soviet Sovremenny DDG. Now many people have said to me that a Sovremenny will never fire SAMs. With the SAMs set to "Never Auto-Fire", I find it has no problem firing SA-N-7s provided the target is not at VLow. Unfortunately, the platform display isn't as complete as the Data Annex and does not show this information. As most of you know, Harpoons are seaskimmers and come in at VLow. Because, the SA-N-7 can't be used against VLow targets, Harpoons are an excellent way to attack a Sovremenny. Aircraft can come in at VLow also, though some may end up in the ocean due to pilot error. However, you shouldn't get too close, because the guns on the Sovremenny can still hit VLow targets. For some reason, Mavericks, even when fired from VLow aircraft, seem to climb up and get shot by the SA-N-7. HARMs work pretty well, even in the SA-N-7 envelope, due to their high speed. I am sure many players have always wondered about certain facets of the game. Now, you can do something about those nagging questions. The Scenario Editor is your tool to explore the hidden corners of the game. -ted Ted Kim Internet: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu UCLA Computer Science Department UUCP: ...!{uunet|ucbvax}!cs.ucla.edu!tek 3804C Boelter Hall Phone: (213)206-8696 Los Angeles, CA 90024 FAX: (213)825-2273 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon 5 Aug 1991 20:06:00 PDT From: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (Ted Kim) Subject: (27) Sensor Trivia Sometimes sensors can be used in unusual ways. One example comes from SITREP 6 which cites "Guide to the Soviet Navy, 3rd ed." by Polmar. Apparently, submarine towed arrays can sometimes pick up low-flying helicopters or turboprop aircraft. This is because of the low-frequency noise components from these aircraft engines. In the August 1991 USNI Proceedings, P-3C Update III aircraft were able to spot mines during the Gulf War. They did this with their inverse synthetic aperture radar in "periscope mode". Presumably they were speaking of mines moored or adrift on the surface. -ted Ted Kim Internet: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu UCLA Computer Science Department UUCP: ...!{uunet|ucbvax}!cs.ucla.edu!tek 3804C Boelter Hall Phone: (213)206-8696 Los Angeles, CA 90024 FAX: (213)825-2273 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ********** * CZ End * ********** From root@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU Tue Aug 27 09:21:48 1991 Received: by penzance.cs.ucla.edu (Sendmail 5.61a+YP/3.07pram3) id AA04670; Tue, 27 Aug 91 09:21:48 -0700 Date: Tue, 27 Aug 91 09:21:48 -0700 Message-Id: <9108271621.AA04670@penzance.cs.ucla.edu> From: cz@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU To: cz-dist@penzance.CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: CZ v7 #4 (msgs 28-31) Errors-To: cz-request@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU Status: RO The Convergence Zone Date: 27 August 1991 Volume: 7 Issue: 4 First Message: 28 Messages: 4 Topics: (28) Editorial cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (29) Fighter Backfires robinro@ism.isc.com (30) HUG & 360 Products 71360.2141@compuserve.com (31) Crazy Hornets! lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu "The Convergence Zone" (or just "CZ" for short) is an electronic mailing list for the discussion of the Harpoon naval wargame series and related topics. Submissions: cz@pram.cs.ucla.edu Administration: cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu Archives: sunbane.engrg.uwo.ca (129.100.100.12): pub/cz via anonymous FTP ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 27 Aug 1991 09:07:25 PDT From: cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (CZ Administrator) Subject: (28) Editorial New members added since last issue: rkent@sparc1.csubak.edu (Rick Kent) john.mahoney@heurikon.com (John Mahoney) jco@smuggler.cis.ufl.edu (John C. Orthoefer) moose@svcdudes.com (Michael Rutman) dmw4@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (David M. Weinreich) -ted (disguised as CZ Administrator) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Aug 91 11:04:58 -0700 From: robinro@ism.isc.com (Robin D. Roberts) Subject: Computer Harpoon - Fighter Backfires Summary: (28) Fighter Backfires In CZ 7 msg 23 Ted Kim correctly points out that there is probably no such aircraft as the Backfires armed with AA-9's, although there is nothing to prevent the Soviets from so equipping them. After choking down my ethics on using them 8-) I found an excellant use for them when not using them to escort a Backfire strike. In the convoy scenarios in which they appear, as Soviet, I seem to lose a lot of submarines to patroling P-3's. To reduce these losses, I take a couple of these Fighter Backfires and patrol over my submarine picket line taking care to stay out of range of land based fighters. If CV based fighters happen to stumble on my Backfires then I at least have a search point to find the CV and do something useful with my Backfire strike force. This tactic has cut way down on my loss rate of Soviet submarines by cutting heavily into the NATO Nimrod and P-3 numbers. Robin D. Roberts robinro@ism.isc.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Aug 91 23:52:19 EDT From: 71360.2141@compuserve.com (Carl C. Norman) Subject: HUG & 360 Products Harpoon Users' Group Greetings to all INTERNET Harpooners! I am pleased to have discovered that there is a group of Harpoon players here on INTERNET. The Harpoon Users' Group (HUG) was started about 6 months ago on the CompuServe Information Service. We have grown beyond CompuServe and have have members from the GEnie and Prodigy services as well. We currently have about 120 members located in the US, Canada, UK, Spain, Germany, Netherlands and Israel. THe HUG has been approved by both Larry Bond and Three-Sixty Pacific. HUG publishes the newsletter C3I quarterly (as mentioned in the last CZ). Our first issue of C3I was printed last with articles written by HUG members. We are in the process of planning our Fall issue now and would like to encourage people to join us and to submit Harpoon-related articles. Anyone interested please contact me by e-mail (C.C.Norman 71360.2141@compuserve.com) and indicate what you desire to write about. We are looking for articles about strategy & tactics, scenario design, hardware configuration, naval history, intelligence, technical info on platforms, sensors, and weapons systems. We operate a BBS that features over 200 scenarios for downloading. We are investigating the possibility of establishing a means of providing access to our scenario library for INTERNET users. Everyone is encouraged to call the BBS via modem at 718-746-7466. If you desire to join us, please send a check for $10.00 ($15.00 overseas) payable to HARPOON USERS' GROUP. The dues are for one year and provides you with four issues of C3I. Send to HARPOON USERS' GROUP P.O. Box 927371 San Diego, CA 92192-7371. HARPOON STATUS REPORT IOPG Battleset The Indian Ocean/Persian Gulf (IOPG) Battleset is progressing. Expected completion is in late September. This forth Battleset will feature scenarios that include Desert Storm operations as well as operations with or against the Indian Navy. The IOPG Battleset will debut the Soviet Kuznetzov Aircraft Carrier, the YAK-141 Freestyle VSTOL a/c, the MiG-31 Foxhound, the F-117A Stealth, the AH-1W SuperCobra, and the B-52 Stratofortress. Several Desert Storm scenarios will be inclued. One of these is being called "Abdulitov's Raid" and is said to be an Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia without early US and ally intervention. PATRIOT Land-based Simulation Three-Sixty is currently developing PATRIOT, a land-based simulation that will use the Battleset system. The first Battleset will be the Persian Gulf War. Additional Battlesets and a Scenario Editor are being planned as seperate releases. The game will have player control from Corp-level units down to individual Companies. A detailed Order of Battle will be included with each scenario. Zoomable maps will be based upon Defense Mapping Agency charts. Fire Support Planning to include artillery, naval gunfire, and close-air support will be featured. Two-player modem play will be supported. Super VGA 640x480x256 color resolution graphics with multiple sound card support will be incorporated in the software design. The game has been designed by award-winning designers Frank Chadwick and Marc Miller, both with Game Designers' Workshop. Three-Sixty is attempting a late December release. Harpoon Battlebook The Harpoon Battlebook is just off the presses and was shipped to Three-Sixty on August 15th. It should be in book and software stores withing the next two weeks. The book is written by Jim DeGoey with the forward by Tom Clancy and the introduction by Larry Bond. It is a 7x9 inch softcover with 320 pages including over 200 illustrations, screens, and tables. The book will list retail for $18.95 and is also available directly from Three-Sixty by calling 409-776-2187. Harpoon Gold An enhanced version of Harpoon for the PC 386 and above computer is being planned. Consideration is also being given to a Windows and multi-media versions as well. Harpoon Gold has the potential to provide many of the features that Harpooners have wanted to see since computer Harpoon first appeared (e.g. aerial refueling, logistics, attack planning with waypoints, and many other things I can't seem to remember). I look forward to corresponding with many of you in the future. I can be reached via the CompuServe Gateway from INTERNET at 71360.2141@compuserve.com. Tim Jacobs, the Customer Representative for Three-Sixty can be reached at 71310.2664@compuserve.com if you need to reach him to receive information on version upgrades, have problems running Harpoon, or have suggestions Harpoon Gold. Good Hunting, Carl C. Norman Carl C. Norman, President, Harpoon Users' Group ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Aug 91 20:53:41 MDT From: lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Mark Lam) Subject: (31) Crazy Hornets! Hmm, maybe I'm going nuts, or the computer is lying to me, but . . . Well, okay, here's what happened. I have the Saratoga west of Sicily in the Med. Just a few hundred miles southeast is a Libyan base that must be destroyed. Okay, fine, let's launch some Hornets w/ Standoff. Oh yeah, let's add some Tomcats for AAW. Tomcats are LR Air to Air. I tell the computer to launch aircraft, and to attack, and get to the aircraft allocation screen. I select four LR F-14Ds, and they go to the launching group window. Next, I pick 18 F/A-18s. They move over to the launching window. Great, the group launches, and while they fly to the target, I get busy sinking some very nasty subs. A while later, I get the message that the strike group is nearing bingo fuel. I check, and they still have to fly a good 75 - 100 miles before they can launch their missiles. I figure that the computer goofed, because if the Hornets didn't have the range, it should have told me that when I selected them to be included in the group. The computer has always told me that the planes don't have enough fuel to reach the targets, then doesn't let me select them. Of course, I let the group fly on (I'm still under the impression the computer goofed). Lo and behold, still ~50 miles short of the launch point, I get the message that the group has reached bingo fuel, and 'we should really order them back to base!!' Ok, fine, bring them back. Then four of them crash due to fuel starvation before they can get to the carrier. Any ideas? I think the U.S. Navy needs a new CAG! :-) Mark Lam lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There are two categories of fighter pilots; those who have performed, and those who someday will perform, a magnificent defensive break turn toward a bug on the canopy." -Robert L. Shaw, Fighter Combat, Tactics and Maneuvering ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ********** * CZ End * ********** From root@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU Tue Sep 3 11:52:01 1991 Received: by penzance.cs.ucla.edu (Sendmail 5.61a+YP/3.07pram3) id AA07900; Tue, 3 Sep 91 11:52:01 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 91 11:52:01 -0700 Message-Id: <9109031852.AA07900@penzance.cs.ucla.edu> From: cz@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU To: cz-dist@penzance.CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: CZ v7 #5 (msgs 32-40) Errors-To: cz-request@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU Status: RO The Convergence Zone Date: 3 September 1991 Volume: 7 Issue: 5 First Message: 32 Messages: 9 Topics: (32) Editorial cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (33) Captain's Edition Harpoon ylsul@athena.mit.edu (34) Re: Crazy Hornets! lcline@agora.rain.com (35) Amiga Information jdutka@wpi.wpi.edu (36) Beginner Needs Help! cole@concert.net (37) More MEDC Problems! lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (38) Endurance Handling pjenny@cco.bbn.com (39) Harpoon PBEM rogopp@auto-trol.com (40) Crazy Hornet Solutions lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu "The Convergence Zone" (or just "CZ" for short) is an electronic mailing list for the discussion of the Harpoon naval wargame series and related topics. Submissions: cz@pram.cs.ucla.edu Administration: cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu Archives: sunbane.engrg.uwo.ca (129.100.100.12): pub/cz via anonymous FTP ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 3 Sep 1991 10:33:00 PDT From: cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (CZ Administrator) Subject: (32) Editorial New members added since last issue: cole@concert.net (Derrick C. Cole) jdutka@wpi.wpi.edu (John Dutka) CZ is now slightly over a year old. Not including this issue, there have been about 350 messages with 20,500 lines of text. Is the Battle Book from 360 out yet? If anyone has it, how about doing a review for the CZ audience? -ted (disguised as CZ Administrator) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Aug 91 13:21:25 EDT From: ylsul@athena.mit.edu (Young Sul) Subject: Harpoon, Captain's Edition Summary: (33) Captain's Edition Harpoon Hi! I've only played Harpoon on the Mac -- its a great game! My Question: I've seen 2 versions of Harpoon: the normal version and the Captain's edition. Can anybody tell me the differences between the 2? Does the faster play and simpler rules detrimentally affect the game at all? thanks! Young Sul ylsul@athena.mit.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Aug 91 5:09:30 PDT From: lcline@agora.rain.com (Larry Cline) Subject: Re: Crazy Hornet (CZ v7 #4 msg 31) Summary: (34) Re: Crazy Hornets! In CZ v7 msg 31, lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Mark Lam) writes: > [some items deleted] > >I tell the computer to launch aircraft, and to attack, and get to the aircraft >allocation screen. I select four LR F-14Ds, and they go to the launching >group window. Next, I pick 18 F/A-18s. They move over to the launching >window. Great, the group launches, and while they fly to the target, I get >busy sinking some very nasty subs. One thing to remember is that the aircraft loiter while the others are being launched. This uses fuel. >Then four of them crash due to fuel starvation before they can get to the >carrier. > >Any ideas? Again, the aircraft have to loiter while the others are landing. The four that crashed may have been the first to take off and the last to land. >I think the U.S. Navy needs a new CAG! :-) The computer should take into account fuel consumption for aircraft loiter while taking off and landing and tell you. But if it did that, there would be a lot of messages saying 'It was in range, why did it tell me it wasn't?' One way to get around this problem is to lauch smaller groups or to launch your LR Air-to-Air seperately, before or after the attack group. This is what I usually do. Whether I launch them before or after depends on the cruise speed of each group. If AA is slower I launch them first. -- Larry Cline lcline@agora.rain.com C_________ Industrial Graphics ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Aug 91 18:12:11 EST From: jdutka@wpi.wpi.edu (John Dutka) Subject: Amiga Harpoon Info Summary: (35) Amiga Information >From calls to the Harpoon Hotline, I've managed to get the following info: 1. That SAM option mentioned by John Szucs is not in the 2.0-compliant update, and 360 does not know if/when it and the rumors of in-flight refuelling will be added to the Amiga version. 2. The Amiga Battleset #4 is due out soon. 3. They do not plan to address the slow performance even on 25 MHz Amiga 3000's. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Aug 91 09:31:58 -0400 From: cole@concert.net (Derrick C. Cole) Subject: Newbie Needs Help!! Summary: (36) Beginner Needs Help! Greetings! I purchased Harpoon (and since all the Battlesets) with the intent of learning about and enjoying Naval warfare. Well, I'm pretty stumped. I've won maybe a handful of scenarios (all basic...) I'm reading the manual (which I feel is no help...) and talking with my brother (who is dynamite with it), yet still haven't made much progress. Would someone good at it mind posting a scenario of your choice and the steps you would perform during that scenario (or just give hints about command, etc.) Any and all help would surely reduce my ignorance about the simulation! Thanks in advance! Derrick ___ ___ _________ ___ ___ _________ / \_/ // ______// \ / // ______/ Derrick Cole (cole@concert.net) / /\_/ // /_____ / /\ \ // /_____ MCNC Center for Communications /__/ /__//________//__/ \__//________/ Research Triangle Park, NC ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Aug 91 8:05:39 MDT From: lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Mark Lam) Subject: (37) More MEDC Problems! Now, I have another problem. Same BattleSet, different scenario. This time, I was in the unit window, and selected a Libyan base. I then clicked on Full Report. I got the standard window, showing number of ships in port (there were none) and a table that breaks down number and type of aircraft at the base. No problem. However, when I exit, I get two red lines stretching all the way across my Group window. Now, by pure chance, a group of six F-1C Mirages are returning from a strike and happen to be between these two lines. I get a message that that group is flying into enemy AAW range. Then I zoom in to see what group just showed up, and then the group dissappears! Bermuda Triangle Syndrom strikes the Med! Anybody have any problems like this? Both this scenario and the Crazy Hornet one were user created scenarios, so if there are bugs, I think it's with the Scenario Editor, not the MEDC BattleSet. I haven't run into any problems like this on a standard MEDC scenario. Mark Lam lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all. - Unknown U.S. Fighter Pilot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Aug 91 09:59:31 EDT From: pjenny@cco.bbn.com (Peter Jenny) Subject: Computer Harpoon's Aircraft Range Behavior Summary: (38) Endurance Handling In CZ v7 message 31 (Subject: Crazy Hornets!), Mark Lam discusses aircraft range/bingo fuel warning problems. I have observed that bingo fuel warnings are given by the computer such that a 10% fuel reserve will remain. E.g. if a plane has a 2000 mile range, the computer will say it has reached bingo fuel after flying 900 miles out ((2000 - 0.1*2000) / 2 = 900). I have also noticed that when giving launch orders the computer does NOT consider either the 10% reserve/bingo fuel range OR the range of any standoff weapons the planes may be carrying for the attack. So it is definitely possible (I've done it several times) to launch an attack, receive and ignore the bingo fuel warning, attack the target, and return to base without running out of fuel. Of course, I carefully checked the distances traveled, plane range, and standoff weapon range. I never push too far past the bingo point. It is also important to anticipate which strike groups will receive the bingo warning before reaching the launch point, and NOT having them turn around at bingo. If you always say "yes" - return to base - out of habit, and then discover it was your strike group that you know can reach the launch point, if you go and turn them around again to attack the target they may have already flown back 20 miles and that extra 40 miles might be enough to make them run out of fuel. If they cruse straight through and you do your math ok you should have no problem with this method. Note also you can't afford to use military power or afterburner when streching the distance this much. The minimum Hornet range is around 1100 miles, I think, so if your target was only a few hundred miles away (I read that as 300-400 max) I don't know why they would have run out of gas. Peter Jenny pjenny@bbn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Aug 91 18:13:58 MDT From: rogopp@auto-trol.com (Roger Opperman) Subject: (39) Harpoon PBEM Is anyone interested in trying a PBEM game? If there is any interest, I would be glad to moderate. E-mail seems like an ideal forum for a game with as much hidden movement as Harpoon. Mail if you are interested. Details and scenario will depend on the number of people who want to participate. Advice and moderation suggestions are also welcome. Roger Opperman rogopp@auto-trol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 1 Sep 91 10:54:28 MDT From: lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Mark Lam) Subject: Summary of Solutions to Hornet Problems Summary: (40) Crazy Hornet Solutions Thanks to all who responded to my Crazy Hornets post. I received many different solutions to the problem, and many reasons why it occured. As it turns out, there were really two distinct problems I ran in to: (1) the Hornets didn't have the range to get to the target and (2) the Hornets ran out of fuel even after I brought them back as soon as I was told they had reached bingo fuel. As for the first problem, it appears that the computer factors in a 10% safety margin when it figures bingo fuel. I had heard of this before, but I was mistaken as to when the planes started eating into the 10%. It appears that the 10% safety margin is reached after one gets the 'Group XXX has reached Bingo Fuel. We should really order them back to base!' It was at this point that I ordered the Hornets back, still a few miles short of launch range. I could have let them fly on and possibly attack the target. Another factor to be considered with the first problem is that the raid had many aircraft (22) and two different types of aircraft: F-18 and F-14D. When this occurs, the group icon will fly at the slowest cruise speed, in this case the F-14s cruise speed. Even so, the Hornets burnt fuel at the same rate they would had they been flying at their faster cruise speed. So, they Hornets went slower and therefore effectivly shortened their range. As far as the size of the group, 22 aircraft take a while to launch. I noticed that the computer launches two aircraft about every minute off of a carrier. I assume that it is using the bow catapults of the carrier, leaving the landing area clear for continued flight operations. Given two aircraft every minute, it would take 11 minutes to get the entire flight up and on their way. So, the first planes launched and burned more fuel waiting for the last planes to get airborne. This would explain why only four Hornets crashed, not the entire group of Hornets. This explains problem number two. With just this help, I am now watching my aircraft strikes much more closely, and I hope not to waste any more planes because of these problems. Thanks again to those who pointed these things out to me! Moving on to another subject, somebody in rec.games.misc said that they had their copy of the BattleBook. I was wondering if anyone has gotten a copy at a store, or if the only people who have them now were the ones who ordered from the company. My Software Etc. store doesn't even know what I'm talking about when I mention it. Oh well . . . Mark Lam lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all. - Unknown U.S. Fighter Pilot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ********** * CZ End * ********** From root@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU Fri Sep 6 13:47:53 1991 Received: by penzance.cs.ucla.edu (Sendmail 5.61a+YP/3.07pram4) id AA10917; Fri, 6 Sep 91 13:47:53 -0700 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 91 13:47:53 -0700 Message-Id: <9109062047.AA10917@penzance.cs.ucla.edu> From: cz@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU To: cz-dist@penzance.CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: CZ v7 #6 (msgs 41-47) Errors-To: cz-request@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU Status: RO The Convergence Zone Date: 6 September 1991 Volume: 7 Issue: 6 First Message: 41 Messages: 7 Topics: (41) Editorial cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (42) VLS Query wcsswag@ccs.carleton.ca (43) Miscellaneous Questions beacker@mips.com (44) Carrier Operations guidry@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (45) Captain's Edition tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (46) Civilian Ships beacker@mips.com (47) Harpoon Battle Book rwright@dhostwo.convex.com "The Convergence Zone" (or just "CZ" for short) is an electronic mailing list for the discussion of the Harpoon naval wargame series and related topics. Submissions: cz@pram.cs.ucla.edu Administration: cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu Archives: sunbane.engrg.uwo.ca (129.100.100.12): pub/cz via anonymous FTP ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 6 Sep 1991 12:50:06 PDT From: cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (CZ Administrator) Subject: (41) Editorial New members added since last issue: r_dover@icrf.ac.uk (Robin Dover) The latest GDW catalog has "Troubled Waters" (Third World Ship Forms) coming out in November 1991 for $12. The description for "Sealift" is sort of vague, but it looks like North Atlantic Convoy for Captain's Edition. It will be $26 and will release in January 1992. 360 just sent me an update for Mac Harpoon. (Gee, they actually got my registration card!) The new version is 1.01 (despite the icon and disk names) and replaces the older 1.00. It is basically a bug fix version. The most noticeable things so far are the bold outlines around some default choice buttons and the + - time compression buttons are now side by side. I haven't crashed using it, but then I haven't pushed the new version very hard yet either. 360 is also selling the Harpoon BattleBook, Poster, Cap and T-Shirt. Funny thing is that the T-Shirt is only available in L and XL! Are we all that sedentary? -ted (disguised as CZ Administrator) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Sep 91 17:06:28 EDT From: wcsswag@ccs.carleton.ca (Alex Klaus) Subject: (42) VLS Query The other night I played a NACV senario. During the mission the computer informs me that my VLS Tico's forward VLS unit has failed. My question, according to a CZ issue [Ed Note: v5 msg 14], someone mentioned it should be immpossible for an entire VLS unit to fail. Only portions of the VLS grid, due to compartmentalization. Is this a semi-bug in the interest of simplicity or another minor slip by 360. Alex Klaus ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 03 Sep 91 15:04:49 MST From: beacker@mips.com (Bradley Eacker) Subject: couple of questions Summary: (43) Miscellaneous Questions I was involved in a couple of scenarios over the weekend up here in the SF Bay area over the weekend at Pacificon. In the course of playing the game a couple of interesting tidbits came up. 1) Does anyone have any information on the US warship that hit a mine in the Persian Gulf? I understand that it had to be brought back piggy back to one of our ports because it's keel was bent so bad that it wouldn't even float. 2) Do we know whether or not the "Outlaw Hunter" will be added to the Harpoon annex, or come thru the Sitrep now that it has been talked about in the USNI Proceedings (August '91)? It sounds like a real interesting beast considering the identification options it adds to any situation where you need to identify a particular target. 3) Does anyone know if the DMA (Defense Mapping Agency) charts are available on clear plastic? The main thing here is the possibility of building a light box (2 x 3 ft or 3 x 4 ft) for doing the book keeping for the motion of the ships in the miniature games. I thought that this might be a better way than the large paper setup that the poor moderator was trying to maintain in the game over the weekend. The idea came to me from the scenes in the movie "Hunt for Red October" where the captain was drawing on the clear charts on the light box. Brad Eacker (beacker@mips.com) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Sep 91 9:26:45 CDT From: guidry@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (David Guidry) Subject: CV troubles (and followup to crazy hornets) Summary: (44) Carrier Operations In CZ v7 message 40, lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Mark Lam) writes: > Thanks to all who responded to my Crazy Hornets post. > ... > As far as the size of the group, 22 aircraft take a while to launch. I > noticed that the computer launches two aircraft about every minute off of > a carrier. I assume that it is using the bow catapults of the carrier, > leaving the landing area clear for continued flight operations. Given two > aircraft every minute, it would take 11 minutes to get the entire flight > up and on their way. Just to pick nits on this, day-to-day carrier operations use the rear cats for flight ops and keep planes stored on top of the bow cats. The only time that this is not the case is when there is an inordinate amount of flight activity taking place and you need simultaneous launch and recovery (Like the gulf war). I have two problems with the way the game treats CVs. both involve the way it handles launch and recovery. (1) Since the game is a WAR simulation, it should allow launch from all four cats unless there are landings going on at the same time, in which case, it should allow launches from two cats (the forward). It currently seems to use just two cats at any time. (2) Try creating a scenario with two carriers in the same group. Then specify which carriers planes you want doing whatever... such as launching half of your strike force from the first CV and the other half from the second CV (in order to halve the time necessary to launch the aircraft). The game will ignore your specific orders and exhaust the first CV's supply of appropriate planes before getting around to the second CV. Also, does anybody know if the game shows differences between the F-14A, F-14A+, and the F-14D? As I recall, they use the same numbers on range (14xx short range, 17xx long range) on all three types of aircraft. The A+ and D are sxupposed to have 30% better range than the A. And according to Proceedings, the current numbers on the mix is 250+ A, 65+ A+, 39 D. So you really shouldn't be able to load down three CVs with F-14Ds (although we all do it ;-]). Just FYI: the A+ is an A whose airframe was modified to hold the F110 engines, whereas the D is built from the ground to hold the F110. -- David A. Guidry | On a clear disk, you | empire Student Consultant | can seek forever | Not just a game Academic Computing and Network Services | but a way of life | -- Gott im Himmel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed 4 Sep 1991 10:14:03 PDT From: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (Ted Kim) Subject: (45) Captain's Edition In CZ v7 message 33, ylsul@athena.mit.edu (Young Sul) writes: > I've seen 2 versions of Harpoon: the normal version and the > Captain's Edition. Can anybody tell me the differences between the > two? Does the faster play and simpler rules detrimentally affect the > game at all? As you mention, Captain's Edition is the simpler of the two. It is also more abstract and less detailed. In Captain's Edition, you are running things at a higher level. You maneuver whole task forces across a hex board where a single hex is 60 nm and a turn is 8 hours. Regular Harpoon is a miniatures game at the scale of individual ships and planes with a couple of inches to the nm and a turn can be 30 seconds. While they both portray naval combat, they are totally different games. If up want to see the big picture, then Captain's Edition shows you some of the elements of a naval campaign. On the other hand, if you are into analyzing platforms and specific weapon systems, then you should get "regular" Harpoon. If you want more information on Captain's Edition, I suggest reading the review I did on way back in CZ v1 message 18. -ted Ted Kim Internet: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu UCLA Computer Science Department UUCP: ...!{uunet|ucbvax}!cs.ucla.edu!tek 3804C Boelter Hall Phone: (213)206-8696 Los Angeles, CA 90024 FAX: (213)825-2273 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 05 Sep 91 14:14:49 MST From: beacker@mips.com (Bradley Eacker) Subject: (46) Civilian Ships Does anyone have any harpoon type data for civilian ships/aircraft? This situation arose over the weekend, where the scenario was in the Persian Gulf, after the invasion of Kuwait, but before the air war started with Iraq. The basis for the scenario was that the US task force was attempting to enforce the UN sanctions, but there were civilian planes, and a tanker in the area. The problem being that the US commander needed to visually verify a target so the government didn't have to "explain" an attack that should not have occured :-). The main info that I was looking for was tonnage, and speed for the different elements. Brad Eacker (beacker@mips.com) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Sep 91 8:53:24 CDT From: rwright@dhostwo.convex.com (Randy Wright) Subject: Harpoon Battle Book Review Summary: (47) Harpoon Battle Book Contents Foreward - Tom Clancy Introduction - Larry Bond Part I - Computer Harpoon Chapter 1 - The Harpoon Simulation Chapter 2 - Guide to Harpoon Tactics Chapter 3 - Dawn Patrol - A Tactical study Chapter 4 - Scenario Editor Design Guide Part II - Platforms, Sensors, & Weapon Systems Chapter 5 - Submarines Chapter 6 - Surface Ships Chapter 7 - Aircraft & Helicopters Chapter 8 - Sensors Chapter 9 - Weapon Systems Part III - Computer Harpoon Data Annex Annex A - Platforms Annex B - Sensors Annex C - Weapon Systems Annex D - Land-based Sensors & Weapon Systems Annex E - Harpoon Troubleshooting Guide Glossary Bibliography Chapter 1 - The Harpoon Simulation A brief history of both the board game and the computer simulation is given. The concept of BattleSets and scenarios is discussed. Apologies are made for the limitations imposed upon the program by DOS and the 640K limit; this may be solved "when a better operating system comes along or when Three-Sixty decides to complete a 386 protected mode version of Harpoon with a proprietary DOS extender. The data base is introduced, touching on platforms and sensors. Chapter 2 - Guide to Harpoon Tactics Chapter 2 begins with a discussion of the game options: weather, maintenance failures, full ordnance, and auto formation air cover. The version 1.2 additional setting of AAW Auto-Fire range is discussed. Additional topics covered in the chapter are the formation editor, electronic warfare, submarine warfare, ASW, ASuW, strike, air, and anti-air warfare. As a Harpoon player who has spent many hours immersed in the game over the past year and a half, I found this section confirms quite a few observations I've made with respect to tactics. It also contradicts a few of my personal Harpoon tactical preferences, as I'm sure will be the case for many experienced players. A wonderful thing about a simulation is that you try multiple tactics and put those which work best for you in your "package." As an example of the advice found in Chapter 2, recall the recent discussion in this mailing list of aircraft fuel range; the Battlebook contains the same hints given by several respondents with respect to not mixing aircraft types in a single strike package. Not mentioned in the Battlebook, however, is the fact that loiter time during group launch also affects aircraft fuel supply. Chapter 3 - Dawn Patrol Tactical Study Chapter 3 walks the novice player through the Dawn Patrol scenario. I must first admit that as an experienced player, I did not play the scenario using this detailed guide. I would certainly have appreciated this walkthrough as a novice, though; it alone probably would justify purchase of the Battlebook. The chapter occupies forty pages of the book; it includes many screen images taken directly from playing the Dawn Patrol scenario, and discusses details of orders given. I would fault this chapter for presenting only one strategy - perhaps justified, since the goal here is to get the novice "up and running" rather than present strategic alternatives. Chapter 4 - Scenario Editor Design Guide Chapter 4 encompasses thirty pages; in this section, the scenario editor is introduced and three sample scenarios are constructed. The importance of plausibility and surprise is mentioned (as if explanation were necessary!). The three scenarios presented appear worth entering. An interesting product "tie-in" is that these scenarios are based on a soon-to-be-released fictional work, "Blue Water Navy: World War III at Sea," by Michael Palmer. Chapters 5 - 9 and Appendices A - D One will probably assume that the reviewer got tired at this point and lumped the balance of the book into a single discussion. However, one will notice a similar theme within these sections, which comprise roughly the second half of the book: Chapter 5 - Submarines Chapter 6 - Surface Ships Chapter 7 - Aircraft & Helicopters Chapter 8 - Sensors Chapter 9 - Weapon Systems Annex A - Platforms Annex B - Sensors Annex C - Weapon Systems Annex D - Land-based Sensors & Weapon Systems Chapters 5-9 includes background information on the platforms, weapons, and sensors. These chapters would be quite enlightening to the reader unfamiliar with the difference between a cruiser and a destroyer, or between an AWACS and an Orion; for the serious amateur, or for the professional, the background information herein probably presents little new information. Chapters 5-7 also include the number of each unit type contained in each BattleSet, and the missions for which air platforms are appropriate. Chapter 8 presents the range and probability of detection for sensors. Chapter 9 presents the probability of hit, or the kill and damage radii of weapons. This information is presented in tabular form following the background information discussions. Appendix A presents the crew size and damage points required to kill the various naval platforms. Offensive and defensive capabilities of air platforms are given a numeric rating, and the program's calculation of a hit probability from this information is discussed. Appendix B summarizes sensor deployment by platform. Appendix C summarizes weapon deployment by platform. Appendix D summarizes land based weapon and sensor deployment per BattleSet, and provides useful information on their capabilities. I would offer the observation that the data in Appendix D may be too useful - it seems unlikely to this reviewer that in the event of war, we have exact intelligence as to the sensors and weapons deployed at each of the enemy's bases! I would fault the author on his organization of this information; I would have preferred to see the information contained within the appendices distributed throughout the appropriate chapters. To chose an example, if I want to know everything about the Seawolf SSN, I will find its AAW, ASuW, ASW, and SD (Self-Defense) ratings, on a zero-to-four scale, in Chapter 5. I also find the number of each type of unit in each BattleSet in this chapter. However, if I want to know crew size or damage points for a platform, I must refer to Appendix A. Similarly, to find out the kill and damage radius of the Mk101 nuclear depth bomb, I refer to chapter 9; to discover the platforms on which it may be deployed, I must refer to Appendix C. Appendix E - Troubleshooting If you've had Harpoon for any length of time, you've probably learned this information yourself by trial and error. It might save you some frustration if you're new to the game. General considerations, as well as information specific to IBM-PC, Amiga, and Macintosh versions are presented. Summary The less educated one is with respect to naval strategy and tactics, the more valuable this book will prove. And regardless of "real-world" education on strategy, tactics, sensors, and weapons, the book is quite valuable to the new Harpoon player. The experience player will enjoy comparing his or her hard-won experience with the tips given in the book. The reader will certainly learn some interesting facts about the internals of the game. At $18.95, the price is a bit high - but compared to what you've already spent on Harpoon, the scenarios, and the scenario editor, it's probably not a major expense. -- Randy Wright Usmail: Convex Computers Phone: (214) 497-4868 3000 Waterview Pky. M/S DV4 Email: rwright@convex.com P.O. Box 833851 Richardson, TX 75083-3851 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ********** * CZ End * ********** From root@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU Mon Sep 23 15:17:05 1991 Received: by penzance.cs.ucla.edu (Sendmail 5.61a+YP/3.07pram4) id AA01568; Mon, 23 Sep 91 15:17:05 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 91 15:17:05 -0700 Message-Id: <9109232217.AA01568@penzance.cs.ucla.edu> From: cz@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU To: cz-dist@penzance.CS.UCLA.EDU Subject: CZ v7 #7 (msgs 48-61) Errors-To: cz-request@PRAM.CS.UCLA.EDU Status: RO The Convergence Zone Date: 23 September 1991 Volume: 7 Issue: 7 First Message: 48 Messages: 14 Topics: (48) Editorial cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (49) Outlaw Hunter? scooter@emunix.emich.edu (50) Outlaw Hunter tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (51) Miscellaneous Questions hand@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (52) Mine Victims tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (53) Net Access hand@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (54) Bermuda Triangle tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (55) Computer Dogfighting lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (56) AAM Evasion chbrin5@dknkurz1.bitnet (57) Re: Civilian Ships tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (58) Lopsided? nigel@eagle.gsfc.nasa.gov (59) Amiga 3000 Bugs jdutka@wpi.wpi.edu (60) Volume 7 Index cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (61) CZ Guidelines cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu "The Convergence Zone" (or just "CZ" for short) is an electronic mailing list for the discussion of the Harpoon naval wargame series and related topics. Submissions: cz@pram.cs.ucla.edu Administration: cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu Archives: sunbane.engrg.uwo.ca (129.100.100.12): pub/cz via anonymous FTP ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed 18 Sep 1991 13:58:47 PDT From: cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (CZ Administrator) Subject: (48) Editorial New members added since last issue: ebohlin@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Einar D. Bohlin) chou@gibbs.ee.ucla.edu (Chou) Sorry for taking so long to come out with this issue. I suddenly got busy and was called out of town for a week to do some consulting. -ted (disguised as CZ Administrator) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 8 Sep 91 12:40:28 EDT From: scooter@emunix.emich.edu (Todd McDaniel) Subject: (49) Outlaw Hunter? Hi, I was reading the last issue of CZ when I came across a piece about something called "Outlaw Hunter" that was disscussed in Proceedings. Can anyone elaborate on this? thanks, tj ------------------------------Save the wolves--------------------------------- | _________ ___ ___ ___ |EngliNet: Todd John McDaniel | | /________/| /__/| /__/\ /__/| |InterNet: scooter@emunix.emich.edu | | |___ ___|/ | || | \\ / || | | | | || ____| || | |\\//| || | Western Civilization: | | | || /____| || | ||\/ | || | "It would be a good idea" | | |__|/ |_______|/ |__|/ |__|/ | Mohandas K. Gandhi | | | | ------------------------------Save the wolves--------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 6 Sep 1991 15:07:35 PDT From: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (Ted Kim) Subject: (50) Outlaw Hunter CZ v7 messages 43 and 49 mention the P-3 variant Outlaw Hunter. The 90-91 Data Annex lists P-3C Update IV with the APS-137 radar, which is an Inverse Synthetic Aperture Radar (ISAR). As far as Harpoon goes, this allows the aircraft to identify class or type of detected targets. >From the August 1991 USNI Proceedings, it appears that Outlaw Hunter not only has ISAR but also has GPS, a tactical data processor and special communication links as well. I am not sure how this additional capability can be modeled in Harpoon as the whole area of attack coordination and data fusion are not modeled in detail. -ted Ted Kim Internet: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu UCLA Computer Science Department UUCP: ...!{uunet|ucbvax}!cs.ucla.edu!tek 3804C Boelter Hall Phone: (213)206-8696 Los Angeles, CA 90024 FAX: (213)825-2273 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1991 18:35:01 GMT+0000 From: hand@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov Subject: Misc Q's Summary: (51) Miscellaneous Questions I have a couple of questions on 360's Harpoon for everyone out there... Has anyone put the comment in the Battlebook (about F/A-18 and F-111's being immune to pilot error crashes @VLow in the MEDC battleset) to test? I was running a scenario and had a flight of 12 Hornets @ VLow. 6 (SIX!!!!) crashed due to pilot error flying at very low altitude. I guess that their terrain-following radar was faulty. Another question: How is it that I can have a Helo Pad breakdown on a frigate and still conduct air ops from the ship? What the heck is a "Helo Pad Breakdown" anyhow? Bear Trap broken??? Finally, 360 has fixed the errors in the NACV database that allowed S-3's and Su-24's to operate from the AVS Arapaho. In addition, the Baku now has SA-N-9's (?) instead of SS-N-9's. Made the thing a tub as far as AAW protection. BTW, has the Baku had its name changed? I think that I came across a mention of the change due to breakaway republic issues. I seem to recall that the name was _Admiral of the Fleet Gorshkov_. Is this correct? Thanks. ************************************************************************ * Kolin E. Hand hand@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov * * hand@hobbit.jpl.nasa.gov * |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| || "Humor... It is a difficult concept." || || -- Savak || |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 6 Sep 1991 15:07:30 PDT From: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (Ted Kim) Subject: (52) Mine Victims In CZ v7 message 43, beacker@mips.com (Bradley Eacker) writes: > 1) Does anyone have any information on the US warship that hit a > mine in the Persian Gulf? I understand that it had to be brought > back piggy back to one of our ports because it's keel was bent so > bad that it wouldn't even float. This ship in question was FFG-58 Samuel B. Roberts (O.H. Perry Class). The ship struck a mine on 14 April 1988. After initial repairs in Dubai, she was transported back to the US on the chartered heavy lift ship Mighty Servant II. Repairs were conducted at Bath Iron Works from October 1988 to October 1989. More recently, during the Gulf War, two USN ships struck mines on 18 February 1991 but were not as severely damaged as FFG-58. The two ships were: CG-59 Princeton (Ticonderoga VLS Aegis Class) LPH-10 Tripoli (Iwo Jima Class) -ted Ted Kim Internet: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu UCLA Computer Science Department UUCP: ...!{uunet|ucbvax}!cs.ucla.edu!tek 3804C Boelter Hall Phone: (213)206-8696 Los Angeles, CA 90024 FAX: (213)825-2273 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1991 18:43:36 GMT+0000 From: hand@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov Subject: Internet help. SLIP stuff. Summary: (53) Net Access I am currently investigating setting up access to the HUG BBS via the net. Can anyone out there give me some info on any SLIP packages one could use for the PC? The ultimate goal is to combine Hilbert's stuff with that of the HUG BBS. I would appreciate some tips from any knowledgeable Harpoon-Internetter out there. Thanks ************************************************************************ * Kolin E. Hand hand@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov * * hand@hobbit.jpl.nasa.gov * |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| || "Humor... It is a difficult concept." || || -- Savak || |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed 4 Sep 1991 10:15:27 PDT From: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (Ted Kim) Subject: (54) Bermuda Triangle In CZ v7 message 37, lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Mark Lam) writes: > ... I get two red lines stretching all the way across my Group > window. Now, by pure chance, a group of six F-1C Mirages are > returning from a strike and happen to be between these two lines. > ... Then I zoom in to see what group just showed up, and then the > group dissappears! Bermuda Triangle Syndrome strikes the Med! I don't know if it's the same problem, but occasionally the grid on the Group map is not displayed properly. Long diagonal lines show up. This goes away after fiddling with the map position. Fortunately, none of my groups were gobbled up. Maybe it's just a display bug. -ted Ted Kim Internet: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu UCLA Computer Science Department UUCP: ...!{uunet|ucbvax}!cs.ucla.edu!tek 3804C Boelter Hall Phone: (213)206-8696 Los Angeles, CA 90024 FAX: (213)825-2273 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Sep 91 19:17:27 MDT From: lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Mark Lam) Subject: Dogfighting in Computer Harpoon Summary: (55) Computer Dogfighting Has anyone out there come up with an effective way to win close-in dogfight encounters? I'm refering to the fangs-out cannon duel. I just watched eight F/A-18 Hornets take on two MiG-29 Fulcrums. I was in control of the Hornets. The MiGs apparently didn't have any missiles, but they closed to within guns range. I had the Hornets attack the group when it was close enough, and I got the standard "Unit BJ01 engaging unit WF01 with cannon!" message. I got this a couple of times, then the MiGs started firing back. I lost some Hornets. The Hornets engaged again, and again failed to score a single kill. The MiGs engaged again, and killed some more Hornets. Does the computer just not like F/A-18s? Or is the MiG really that good at close in dogfighting? Granted, the Hornets were carrying Harpoon missiles, but I don't think the computer takes loadout into consideration when figuring out who hits whom in a dogfight. Thanks! Mark Lam lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all. - Unknown U.S. Fighter Pilot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Sep 91 12:02:19 MEZ From: chbrin5@dknkurz1.bitnet (Kai Hortmann) Subject: Running Away from a Missile Summary: (56) AAM Evasion While playing the Takeover scenario of computer Harpoon, I discovered a new tactic against computer planes. Here is what happened: The scenario starts out with both sides trying to gain air superiority over Norway. I was playing the USSR and did quite well, because the computer doesn't handle planes very efficient. But somewhere in the middle of the game I suddenly had a group of 12 F-18 Hornets nearing my territory while I had only 4 MIGs 29 in the vicinity. The range circles showed that the enemy had a much superior missile range. But I just HAD to attack him, because I feared that he might have a loadout of 'standoff' and he was heading for one of my bases. So I located my MIGs right in his path, heading away from him, but with speed set to 'loiter'. As soon as I was in his missile range, he fired 8 missiles. As soon as I saw the missiles on my screen, I speeded up my MIGs to 'military' and left his missile range. Outside his missile range I stopped again, watching his missiles run out of fuel. He soon had me in his range again and fired another 8 missiles, which I evaded as before. After repeating this for a while, he went out of long-range AAMs. Then I approached and shot him down with MY missiles. :) This tactic works best against long-range AAMs. Short-range AAMs don't give you enough time for evasion. <* Kai Hortmann - University of Konstanz - Germany *> <* chbrin5@dknkurz1.bitnet or chbrin5@nyx.uni-konstanz.de *> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 6 Sep 1991 15:08:07 PDT From: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (Ted Kim) Subject: (57) Re: Civilian Ships In CZ v7 message 46, beacker@mips.com (Bradley Eacker) writes: > Does anyone have any harpoon type data for civilian ships/aircraft? The 90-91 Data Annex does list some auxiliaries which are simply civilian cargo ships called up during emergencies. Unfortunately, there isn't much background information given in the Data Annex. Thus, it's preety hard to figure which ships fit this description. Many Argentine and UK examples of called up civilian ships are highlighted in South Atlantic War module. There are also one or two examples of civilian planes (the Argentine 707) in the Data Annex. -ted Ted Kim Internet: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu UCLA Computer Science Department UUCP: ...!{uunet|ucbvax}!cs.ucla.edu!tek 3804C Boelter Hall Phone: (213)206-8696 Los Angeles, CA 90024 FAX: (213)825-2273 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 15:52:17 EDT From: nigel@eagle.gsfc.nasa.gov (Nigel Tzeng) Subject: (58) Lopsided? I just got the NACV battleset (Yeah...I'm way behind, I know ;-). and I've been ditzing around with the 3 carriers vs the Soviet bases. Is it my imagination or is the balance of forces supposed to be that lopsided? I can leave 18 F-14As up on the threat axis until dooms day and with the AWACS and Hawkeyes up there isn't going to be much surprise. This leaves a mess of F18's to backstop the F14's and provide some overhead cover. I just don't see the Backfires getting into engagement range before they get shot down. Now as the Soviets I've been able to kill the CVs but that's because the computer doesn't set up the CAP quite as effectively and because it wants to dribble F-14's into my SAM coverage to pick off the Mainstays...but against a competent opponent I doubt I could figure out a way to hold off 3 carrier strikes with the fighters on hand or penetrate the CAP they would have set up. At best I think I could wrange trading the SU27s one-for-one against the Tomcats and maybe hitting the CVs with a Backfire raid... Which reminds me...there's at least two Ticos and an Burke in the escorts. Toss in the Leahy and some of the other AA ships and just what do I think I'm going to do with 25-odd Backfires? At worst the US puts a good AA ship on every sector with 3+ ageis ships on the primary threat axis. All the eggs are in one basket but it's one well protected basket. Game mechanics question: If I keep the three carrier groups seperate but in the same location will all three groups try to intercept incomming missiles? The backfires never got a chance to shoot when I played the US. I have the Amiga version and I'm a tad tired of not being able to set my AAW fire. The game also doesn't seem to make sure I've got enough directors vs missiles aloft. I do know the Ageis has a panic mode but I think the hit prob reflects the normal directed mode where the Ageis picks out targets for the SM2s. An interesting question is if in the "hit whatever is closet" panic mode Ageis will interfere with orders from another weapon director? Also...will two Ageis ships in the same groups work in caoncert somehow? Is there some sort of data transfer going on? I suppose that once you're in missile defense mode EMCON goes out the window. NT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Sep 91 02:25:29 EST From: jdutka@wpi.wpi.edu (John Dutka) Subject: Harpoon Amiga 3000 Version Bugs Summary: (59) Amiga 3000 Bugs Well, guess what, folks - I just received the 3000 version of Harpoon for the Amiga a week ago. The game won't even boot under 2.0 from the main icon (I thought this was supposed to be 2.0 compatible?), and when it DOES boot (when double-clicking the Harpoon.opt icon), Harpoon generates rather constant Enforcer hits, as confirmed by Enforcer V2.6f. Does anyone out there know if there is a fix in the works, or a planned date for Harpoon Gold for the 3000? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon 23 Sep 1991 15:10:49 PDT From: cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (CZ Administrator) Subject: (60) Volume 7 Index Volume Issue Date Messages Author ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7 1 26 July 1991 (1) Editorial cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (2) Amiga Problems charbonneau@crd.ge.com (3) JSTARS guidry@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (4) PC version 1.2 zen@utcs.utoronto.ca (5) Amiga version 1.1 caw@miroc.chi.il.us (6) 360 Pacific Response hand@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (7) Sea Cobra, etc. lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (8) Naval Tactics lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (9) Beginner's Questions rogers@npdiss1.stpaul.ncr.com (10) British Warships lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (11) Harpoon Users' Group frank0@ibmpcug.co.uk 2 2 August 1991 (12) Editorial cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (13) Re: British Warships guidry@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (14) Re: Tactics & UK Warships dgil@ipsaint.ipsa.reuter.com (15) GEnie Harpoon robinro@ism.isc.com (16) Scenario Editor Bugs! lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (17) Tactics Texts cellar!sailor@uunet.uu.net (18) Fleet Tactics tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (19) Search Factors lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (20) Re: Beginner Questions tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu 3 9 August 1991 (21) Editorial cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (22) Bomber vs. Bomber lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (23) Soviet Bomber Escorts tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (24) C3I Review tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (25) HUG Scenarios kxb@math.ksu.edu (26) Training Simulator tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (27) Sensor Trivia tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu 4 27 August 1991 (28) Editorial cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (29) Fighter Backfires robinro@ism.isc.com (30) HUG & 360 Products 71360.2141@compuserve.com (31) Crazy Hornets! lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu 5 3 September 1991 (32) Editorial cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (33) Captain's Edition Harpoon ylsul@athena.mit.edu (34) Re: Crazy Hornets! lcline@agora.rain.com (35) Amiga Information jdutka@wpi.wpi.edu (36) Beginner Needs Help! cole@concert.net (37) More MEDC Problems! lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (38) Endurance Handling pjenny@cco.bbn.com (39) Harpoon PBEM rogopp@auto-trol.com (40) Crazy Hornet Solutions lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu 6 6 September 1991 (41) Editorial cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (42) VLS Query wcsswag@ccs.carleton.ca (43) Miscellaneous Questions beacker@mips.com (44) Carrier Operations guidry@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (45) Captain's Edition tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (46) Civilian Ships beacker@mips.com (47) Harpoon Battle Book rwright@dhostwo.convex.com 7 23 September 1991 (48) Editorial cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (49) Outlaw Hunter? scooter@emunix.emich.edu (50) Outlaw Hunter tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (51) Miscellaneous Questions hand@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (52) Mine Victims tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (53) Net Access hand@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (54) Bermuda Triangle tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (55) Computer Dogfighting lam@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (56) AAM Evasion chbrin5@dknkurz1.bitnet (57) Re: Civilian Ships tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (58) Lopsided? nigel@eagle.gsfc.nasa.gov (59) Amiga 3000 Bugs jdutka@wpi.wpi.edu (60) Volume 7 Index cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (61) CZ Guidelines cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon 23 Sep 1991 15:10:51 PDT From: cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu (CZ Administrator) Subject: (61) CZ Guidelines Guidelines for The Convergence Zone Last Update: 1 March 1991 Author: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu (Ted Kim - CZ Moderator) Welcome to The Convergence Zone! Goal "The Convergence Zone" (or just "CZ" for short) is an electronic mailing list for the discussion of the Harpoon naval wargame series and related topics. The Harpoon products include Harpoon, Captain's Edition Harpoon, Computer Harpoon, Harpoon SITREP, and various supplements for the print and computer versions. Naval topics are discussed in so far as they are related to the game or provide useful background. The goal of CZ is interesting discussions and material and just plain fun. Submissions Messages for submission to the mailing list should be sent to "cz@pram.cs.ucla.edu". CZ is published in digest form. All messages are subject to possible rejection or editing by the moderator. Rejection should be pretty rare and only occurs if the subject of a message is wholly inappropriate or if the message is offensive. (Please keep flames to a minimum!) Editing should be pretty rare also. Reasons for editing include (but are not necessarily limited to) extreme length, obvious errors and really bad formatting. Any editing will be noted. Please double check your submissions for errors and try to stay within 80 characters per line. Administration Administrative requests should be sent to "cz-request@pram.cs.ucla.edu". Once in a while, the moderator has to do real work, so please be patient. If several people on the same machine receive the CZ, please try to organize a local redistribution. When you signup, I will send you back issues from the current volume. Previous volumes are available from the archives. Archives After each volume is complete, it along with an index is placed on "sunbane.engrg.uwo.ca" (129.100.100.12) for access by anonymous FTP. Please be polite and don't FTP from 08:00 to 18:00 US Eastern time during a workday. The CZ archive volumes appear under the "pub/cz" directory in compressed format. The volumes are named v1.Z, v2.Z, etc. The index files are named i1.Z, i2.Z, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ********** * CZ End * **********